On Saints, Sainthood, Stars, and Dragons...........

[patgund]

Was having a discussion last night with seattlejo on one of the more "famous" literary saints, namely Saint Camber of Culdi, (Patron of Deryni Magic, Defender of Humanity.)

And it got me to thinking about the panel discussion I've always wanted to do or see at a convention, the role of the Saint in Science Fiction and Fantasy, and why you keep having them show up.

Obviously they're a plot device. But why a spiritual plot device?

What SF/F Saints are there anyway??

The classical example is St. Leibowitz in the SF sphere, with St. Camber in the fantasy sphere. Other examples that come to mind are St. Jack the Bodiless and his wife, St. Illusio Diamondmask, from Julian May's Galactic Mileu series. Christopher Stasheff gives us St. Vidicon of Cathode. You even have Saints outside of a Catholic or Catholic-influenced enviroment - David Weber gives us St. Austin Grayson, who led his followers to the planet Grayson.

Quite the group to storm heaven.

But *why* does SF and Fantasy *need* saints? Plot devices aside, what is it about the concept or image of a saint that makes it such a potent plot element?

It would make a fun discussion panel......

Comments

[tepintzin.livejournal.com]

After her death, Paul Muad'dib's sister becomes St. Alia-of-the-knife.

I think saints have power in SF for the same reason they do in real life: they're humans who have somehow transcended "mere" humanity. Certainly that's the case of St. Jack and St. Illusio.

[patgund.livejournal.com]

Something to aspire to at the very least.

You *do* realize you're like the #1 choice I'd have for such a panel, right? ;-)

[electorprince.livejournal.com]

The Imperial Guard (and the Imperium in general) in Warhammer 40K have a massive ecclesiarchial base; there's even a tale in the Guard told of "St. Pius", who was reputed to have been a normal human Guardsman that teleported aboard Horus the Warmaster's battle barge on the eve of his triumph over the Golden Throne, that actually wounded the fallen Primarch with a lasgun and allowed the Emperor to gain the upper hand in his battle with Horus. It's bunk, of course, but it serves to tie in the blessed role of the Guard as being favored by the Emperor just as the Adeptus Astartes are. When you're building religions, even in SF and fanstasy, if the Faith has a hierarchy of form, it's usually a good idea to forge a common link between Faithful and Faith, so as to not promote indifference.

[usqueba.livejournal.com]

:D St Camber! I think Camber was some one people could look up to and trust to do the right thing - for both Humans and Deryni (ok he was harsh on Cinhill, etc but that was before he was canonized).

[selenesue.livejournal.com]

He was tough on Cinhil but it was Toughlove baby. If he had gone any easier on the poor monk, all humanity would have suffered.

Maybe they should have sainted Cinhil too. He was just as surely martyred, one day at a time.

[patgund.livejournal.com]

The question is, did Cinhil transcend his experience? I wouldn't say so. Was he slowly Martyred? Spiritually, yes. But a lot of his behaviour comes from having been, not to put a fine point on it, bullied into the job. He copes, but he doesn't transcend. And it wasn't his faith he was martyred for, but his bloodline and genes.

Certainly his desendants may see him as a saintly figure, though they may have felt that asking the Synod to saint their ancestor was a bit arrogant or presumptive.

The thing that touched off this whole train of thought, several years ago, was reading the San Diego Reader. There, among the various "Thank you St. Jude, for services granted", was "In Praise to St. Camber, for services granted". I always wondered who placed that there and why. Was it a joke? Or did someone use the image of Camber of Culdi to "Storm heaven" on their bequest. Certainly I know a lot of fans who have stated a desire for a St. Camber medel, and I'm not sure some of them aren't serious.

[letter-d.livejournal.com]

Oooh -- fun idea indeed! I think tepintzin pretty well nailed it: saints are transcended humans, and when you think about it, so much of science fiction and fantasy is seated in the idea of humanity transcending (or failing to transcend) a given set of conditions. Also, intercessor figures are ur-icons in the cosmology of human faith -- saints, ancestors, kachina, orisha... every culture has them, so it's no surprise they appear in speculative fiction.

[patgund.livejournal.com]

The interesting thing is. even when humanity *has* transcended or developed a step further, the image is still there, coaxing the human race to make that next step, and the next, and the next, and so on.

Which makes me wonder if we'll only lose that image when we become that image.

[firedrake-mor.livejournal.com]

I don't think that humanity, as a culture, will ever "become" that image. We're the kind of creatures that, unless something radically changes in our culture, is always searching for transcendency, which by definition is a step beyond. No matter where we are, we'll always be looking for the next thing.

Camber spoke to a lot of fantasy fans because he represented doing what he thought was the right thing, no matter the cost. . . and it cost him a lot. He wanted to see the Kingdom restored, and he bet everything on it. His own transcendency comes from the fact that he apparently continued doing that after his death. He went on to the "next thing".

[filkferengi]

*Great* panel idea! Have you mentioned it to the Archon Nasfic or Denvention folks?